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Oct. 16, 2008 -- The health care discussion during Wednesday night's third and final presidential debate was dominated by a central theme: Would "Joe the Plumber" and the rest of us be better off under John McCain's health care plan or Barack Obama's?
One of the most heated exchanges of the night centered on the Toledo, Ohio, man whose encounter with Obama earlier in the week became an instant YouTube and media sensation.
Joe Wurzelbacher, who according to the Associated Press works for a plumbing business but is not a licensed plumber, told Obama that he expected to pay more taxes under the Democrat's plan because the business he planned to buy made slightly more than $250,000 a year.
Joe the Plumber was mentioned 23 times by the candidates during the debate, with no fewer than a dozen references dealing with the financial impact of the candidates' health care plans on people like him.
McCain claimed that if Joe became a business owner, he and other small-business owners would pay a fine under Obama's plan if they didn't offer a health care plan to their employees: "Now, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, and you will then fall into the category where you'll have to pay a fine if you don't provide health insurance that Sen. Obama mandates, not the kind that you think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the kind that mandates for you."
In an earlier exchange, Obama denied that small-business owners would be fined under his plan:
Obama: "I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, if you're out there. Here's your fine -- zero. You won't pay a fine, because ..."
McCain: "Zero?"
Obama: "Zero, because, as I said in our last debate and I'll repeat, John, I exempt small businesses from the requirements for large businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees but are not doing it."
So who was telling the truth?
Stephen Zuckerman, PhD, of the economic and social policy research group Urban Institute, tells WebMD that Obama has never specified how many employees a small business could have.
Robert Moffit, PhD, who directs the Center for Health Care Studies for the conservative think tank Heritage Foundation, agrees.
"Obama has never said how he will define small business, so we can't really know if Joe will pay the fine or not."
Karen Davis, who is president of the health care research group Commonwealth Fund, agrees that Obama has never specified who would qualify as a small-business owner under his plan or what the fine would be for businesses that don't qualify.
She says the fine under other proposed plans has been in the neighborhood of 4% to 6% of revenues.
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